— For the sake of this blog post, I consider ethical hacking and penetration testing to effectively be the same thing. I know not everyone agrees, and that’s unfortunate, but I guess you can’t please everyone.
So here on my comments on Pete’s blog post titled “The Myth of Ethical Hacking (http://blog.norsecorp.com/2015/01/27/the-myth-of-ethical-hacking/)”
“I thought reacting is what you did when you weren’t secure. And I thought ethical hacking was proactive, showing you could take advantage of opportunities left by the stupid people who did the security.”— Boy am I glad he doesn’t think this way anymore. Reacting is part of life, but it’s not done because you’re insecure, it’s done because business and technology along with your adversaries is dynamic. It’s like standing outside without an umbrella. It’s not raining… but if you stand there long enough you’ll need an umbrella. It’s not that you are stupid, it’s that weather changes. If you’re in Chicago, like I am, this happens about every 2.7 seconds.
“I also thought ethical hacking and security testing were the same thing, because while security testing focused on making sure all security controls were there and working right and ethical hacking focused on showing a criminal could penetrate existing security controls, both were about proactively learning what needed to be better secured.”— That’s an interesting distinction. I can’t say I believe this is any more than a simple different in word choice. Isn’t this all about validation of the security an organization thinks they have, versus the reality of how attackers act and what they will target? I guess I could be wrong, but these terms: vulnerability testing, penetration testing, ethical hacking, security testing — they create confusion in the people trying to consume these services, understand security, and hire. Do they have any real value? I this this is one reason standards efforts by people in the security testing space were started, to demystify, de-obfuscate, and lessen confusion. Clearly it’s not working as intended?
“Ethical hacking, penetration testing, and red-teaming are still considered valid ways to improve security posture despite that they test the tester as much, if not more, than the infrastructure.”— Now, here’s a statement that I largely agree with. It’s not controversial anymore to say this. This is why things like the PTES (Penetration Testing Execution Standard) were born. Taking a look at the people who are behind this, standard you can easily see that it’s not just another shot in the dark or empty effort - http://www.pentest-standard.org/index.php/FAQ. Standardizing how a penetration test (or ethical hack, these should be the same thing in my mind). Let me address red teaming for a minute too. Red Team exercises are not the same thing as penetration testing and ethical hacking — not really — it’s like the difference between asking someone if they can pick the lock on the front door, versus daring someone to break into your house and steal your passport without reservation. Red Teaming is a more aggressive approach. I’ve heard some call Red Team exercises “closer to what an actual attacker would behave like”, your mileage may vary on that one. Bottom line, though, you always get the quality you ask for (pay for). If you are willing to pay for high-grade talent, generally speaking you’ll get high grade talent. If you’re looking for a cheap penetration test your results will likely be vastly different because the resources on the job may not be as senior or knowledgeable. The other thing here is this — not all penetration testers are experts in all technologies at your shop. Keep this in mind. Some folks are magicians with a Linux/Unix system, while others have grown their expertise in the Windows world. Some are web application experts, some are infrastructure experts, and some are generalists. The bottom line is that this is both true, something that should be accounted for, and largely not the fault of the tester.
“Then again nearly everything has a positive side we can see if we squint. And as a practical, shake-the-CEO-into-awareness technique, criminal hacking simulations should be good for fostering change in a security posture.”— I read this and wonder to myself… if the CEO hasn’t already been “shaken into awareness” through headlines in the papers and nightly news, then there is something else going on here that a successful ethical hack ransack of the enterprise likely won’t solve.
“So somehow, ethical hackers with their penetration testing and red-teaming, despite any flaws, have taken on this status of better security than, say, vulnerability scanning. Because there’s a human behind it? Is it artisan, and thus we pay more?”— Wait, what?! If you see these two as equal, then you’ve either done a horrible job at picking your ethical hacker/penetration testers, or you don’t understand what you’re saying. As someone who spent a few years demonstrating to companies that web application security tools were critical to their success, I’ve never, ever said they can replace a human tester. Ever. To answer the question directly — YES, because there’s a human behind it, this is an entirely different thing. See above about quality of penetration tester, but the point stands.
“It also has a fatal flaw: It tests for known vulnerabilities. However, in great marketing moves of the world volume 1, that is exactly how they promote it. That’s why companies buy it. But if an ethical hacker markets that they test only for known vulnerabilities, we say they suck.”— Oh, I think I see what’s going on here. The author is confusing vulnerability assessment with penetration testing, maybe. That’s the only logical explanation I can think of. Penetration testers have a massive advantage over scanning tools because of this wonderful thing called the human intellect. They can see and interpret errors that systems kick back. Because tools look for patterns, and respond accordingly, there are times where a human can see an error message and understand what it’s implying, but the machine has no such ability. In spite of all of technology’s advancements, tools are still using regular expressions and some rudimentary if-then clauses for pattern recognition. Machines, and by that way software, do not think. This gives software a disadvantage over a human 100% of the time.
“Now vulnerability scanning is indeed reactive. We wait for known flaws to be known, scan for them, and we then react to that finding by fixing it. Ethical hacking is indeed proactive. But not because it gives the defender omniscient threat awareness, but rather so we can know all the ways where someone can break in. Then we can watch for it or even fix it.”— I’m going to ignore the whole reactive vs proactive debate here. I don’t believe it’s productive to the post here, and I think many people don’t understand what these terms mean in security anyway. First, you’ll never, ever know “all the ways someone can break in”, ever. Never. That’s the beauty of the human mind. Human beings are a creative bunch, and when properly incentivized, we will find a way once we’ve exhausted all the known ways. However, there’s a little caveat here, which is not talked about enough I don’t believe. The reason we won’t ever know all the ways someone can break in, even if we give humans the ability to find all the ways — is this thing called scope, and time. Penetration testers, ethical hackers and whatever you want to call them are time-boxed. Rarely do you get an open-ended contract, or even in the case of an internal resource, the ability to dedicate all the time you have to the task of finding ways to break in. Furthermore, there are many, many, many ways to break in typically. Systems can be mis-configured, un-patched, and left exposed in a million different ways. And even if you did have all the time you needed, these systems are dynamic and are going to change on you at some point, unless you work in one of "those" organizations, and if so then you’ve got bigger problems.
“But does it really work that way? Isn’t what passes for ethical hacking too often just running vulnerability scanners to find the low hanging fruit and exploit that to prove a criminal could get in? Isn’t that really just finding known vulnerabilities like a vulnerability scanner does, but with a little verification thrown in?”— And here it is. Let me answer this question from the many, many people I know who do actual ethical hacking/penetration testing: no. Also if you find this to be actually true in your experience, you’re getting the wrong penetration testers. Maybe fire your provider or staff.
“There’s this myth that ethical hackers will make better security by breaking through existing security in complicated, sometimes clever ways that point out the glaring flaw(s) of the moment for remediation.”— Talk to someone who does serious penetration testing for a living, or manages one of these teams. Many of them have a store of clever, custom code up their sleeves but rarely have to use it because the systems they test have so much broken on them that dropping custom code isn’t even remotely necessary.
“But we know that all too often it’s just vulnerability scanning with scare tactics.”—Again, you’re dealing with some seriously amateur, bad people or providers. Fire them.
“And when there’s no way in, they play the social engineering card.”— a) I don’t see the issue with this approach, b) there’s a 99.9% chance there is a way in without “playing the social engineering card”.
“One of the selling points of ethical hacking is the skilled use of social engineering. Let me save you some money: It works.“— Yes, 90%+ of the time, even when the social engineer isn’t particularly skilled, it works. Why? Human nature. Also employees that don’t know better. So what if it works though, you still need to leverage that testing to show real-use-cases of how your defenses were easily penetrated for educational purposes. Record it. Highlight those employees who let that guy with the 4 coffee cups in his hands through the turnstile without asking for a badge…but do it constructively so that they and their peers will remember. Testing should drive awareness, and real-life use cases are priceless.
“So if ethical hacking as it’s done is a myth…”— Let me stop you right there. It’s not, you’ve just had some terrible experiences I don’t believe are indicative of the wider industry. So since the rest of the article is based on this, I think we’re done here.